Friday, April 13, 2007
G.O.A.T.
Muhammad Ali (and Kenny Rogers) said it - "I am the Greatest."Was he right? Many (most?) would say so. However, my question for the day/weekend/early next week is this - for the Sportsmeat audience (the majority of whom are in the 27-32 y.o. age group), how many athletes have we seen in our lifetimes that were "the greatest" at what they do? For semantical purposes, we'll divide athletes in team sports into greatest by position (so 5 greatest basketball players, one at each position, 6 hockey, 8 baseball fielders plus starting pitcher and reliever, etc.). Of course, for some sports, most notably golf and tennis, there can be only one. Wow, that sounds kinda ominous. And to avoid any nitpicking, they most have been active in 1985 or later.
So which of "the greatest" have we had the pleasure of watching? I won't put forth any of my picks yet, but off the top of my head, I can come up with at least 11 athletes that almost undoubtedly meet this description.
Labels: Kenny Rogers, Muhammad Ali, The Greatest
# posted by Big Thunder @ 7:53 PM 
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In addition to Federer, you could make an argument for Pete Sampras -- who still holds most of the records Federer is chasing. Same with Nicklaus to Tiger (though Nicklaus barely scrapes past 1985).
Otherwise, I guess it depends on whether we're talking the best at their position or in their sport overall.
Fitting more in the pitcher/hitter category: As much as I can't stand them, you could also consider Clemens and his six Cys, as well as Bonds and his haul of MVPs (though you can argue the merits of the last few).
Carl Lewis perhaps.
Lawrence Taylor best LB or best defensive player.
Scraping the barrel now -- Bonnie Blair for speedskating, Michael Johnson for 200-400 track, Charles Barkley for best quote, Majestic Mapp/God Shammgod for best nickname for an overrated college point guard.
Otherwise, I guess it depends on whether we're talking the best at their position or in their sport overall.
Fitting more in the pitcher/hitter category: As much as I can't stand them, you could also consider Clemens and his six Cys, as well as Bonds and his haul of MVPs (though you can argue the merits of the last few).
Carl Lewis perhaps.
Lawrence Taylor best LB or best defensive player.
Scraping the barrel now -- Bonnie Blair for speedskating, Michael Johnson for 200-400 track, Charles Barkley for best quote, Majestic Mapp/God Shammgod for best nickname for an overrated college point guard.
Ej, I'm talking by position. I have Gretzky, Jordan, Federer or Sampras, Rice, Mike Schmidt, Bonds, Rivera, Magic, Montana, LT, Anthony Munoz.
I think the debate is minimal on all of those. After that, there are a number of debatables (Barkley/Mailman, Tiger, Clemens, Piazza, Ronnie Lott, Walter Payton/Emmitt Smith, Tony Gonzalez/Shannon Sharpe, Rey Ordonez, etc.)
I think the debate is minimal on all of those. After that, there are a number of debatables (Barkley/Mailman, Tiger, Clemens, Piazza, Ronnie Lott, Walter Payton/Emmitt Smith, Tony Gonzalez/Shannon Sharpe, Rey Ordonez, etc.)
I absolutely love Magic, but I think you can make a good argument for John Stockton as the greatest point guard. He averaged about .5 assists fewer than Magic but had more steals. Stockton played longer, though you can't hold that against Magic given the circumstances of his first retirement. Of course, Magic clobbers Stockton on rebounds and, more importantly, postseason success. Still, I'd put Magic in the debatable category.
Off the beaten path a bit, I think you'd have to call Karch Kiraly a no-argument GOAT -- gold medalist in indoor and beach, has played forever... I think he's on his farewell tour.
Off the beaten path a bit, I think you'd have to call Karch Kiraly a no-argument GOAT -- gold medalist in indoor and beach, has played forever... I think he's on his farewell tour.
I'm not a big Magic fan, but I just think that there's no comparison with Stockton. I give Stockton a ton of credit for being a great player, sure HOF-er, but not in Magic's league. I mean, Magic had 3 league MVPs, 3 finals MVPs (including his rookie season), and 9 All NBA first teams (with one second team). By comparison, Stockton made all NBA first team twice, second team 6 times, and third team three times.
In fact, I think the second best point guard of our generation (in my opinoion) would be the architect of the Knicks' turnaround. I'd put stockton right behind Zeke, along with Kidd and Nash (maybe even a bit behind Kidd and Nash??).
In fact, I think the second best point guard of our generation (in my opinoion) would be the architect of the Knicks' turnaround. I'd put stockton right behind Zeke, along with Kidd and Nash (maybe even a bit behind Kidd and Nash??).
I thought it would be easier to take it by position, but it's still not a huge group.
As to best ever at their sport, I still don't think you can say Sampras and/or Federer are greater than Rod Laver, and the same with Tiger over Nicklaus. Not yet at least.
Gretzky and Jordan are the two no-brainers here. And Budds is dead on about Kiraly.
For hoops, I'd agree that Magic is the best PG of all-time, though you have to love Stockton's game. In the NFL, certainly Lawrence Taylor and Jerry Rice and probably Munoz, though there have been some great left tackles.
As to arguments,
NBA: Tim Duncan could be the best PF of all-time, Larry Bird the best SF???
Baseball: I'd definitely say Mo as the closer, but Eck could probably make a case. Roger Clemens the best right-hander and Randy Johnson the best left-hander (stronger argument for Clemens). Barry Bonds the best LF, Piazza the best catcher (though Pudge has the MVP and the Gold Gloves).
Football: Joe Montana as greatest QB, and Ronnie Lott's safety competition is probably Rod Woodson (I'd also take Lott). I can't consider Payton or Smith above Jim Brown, but they are great, great backs.
In the "other/Olympic" category, I'd probably stick with Carl Lewis and Bonnie Blair, and I'm sure there are others I just can't think of.
There could be boxers as well but I'm not a strong bozing historian, so I'll steer clear there. Same with swimming (all I have is Spitz ahead of Phelps, who is only 21) and skiing.
And from Joe, I'd imagine you have to consider Roy or Bordeur against Jacque Plante at this point.
Oh, and biggest draft busts:
Sam Bowie
Tony Mandarich
Anyone the Jets drafted between 1982 and 1992 (Bob Crable, Ken O'Brien, Russell Carter, Ron Faurot, Al Toon [over Jerry Rice], Mike Haight, Roger Vick, Dave Cadigan, Jeff Lageman, Blair Thomas, Johnny Mitchell).
As to best ever at their sport, I still don't think you can say Sampras and/or Federer are greater than Rod Laver, and the same with Tiger over Nicklaus. Not yet at least.
Gretzky and Jordan are the two no-brainers here. And Budds is dead on about Kiraly.
For hoops, I'd agree that Magic is the best PG of all-time, though you have to love Stockton's game. In the NFL, certainly Lawrence Taylor and Jerry Rice and probably Munoz, though there have been some great left tackles.
As to arguments,
NBA: Tim Duncan could be the best PF of all-time, Larry Bird the best SF???
Baseball: I'd definitely say Mo as the closer, but Eck could probably make a case. Roger Clemens the best right-hander and Randy Johnson the best left-hander (stronger argument for Clemens). Barry Bonds the best LF, Piazza the best catcher (though Pudge has the MVP and the Gold Gloves).
Football: Joe Montana as greatest QB, and Ronnie Lott's safety competition is probably Rod Woodson (I'd also take Lott). I can't consider Payton or Smith above Jim Brown, but they are great, great backs.
In the "other/Olympic" category, I'd probably stick with Carl Lewis and Bonnie Blair, and I'm sure there are others I just can't think of.
There could be boxers as well but I'm not a strong bozing historian, so I'll steer clear there. Same with swimming (all I have is Spitz ahead of Phelps, who is only 21) and skiing.
And from Joe, I'd imagine you have to consider Roy or Bordeur against Jacque Plante at this point.
Oh, and biggest draft busts:
Sam Bowie
Tony Mandarich
Anyone the Jets drafted between 1982 and 1992 (Bob Crable, Ken O'Brien, Russell Carter, Ron Faurot, Al Toon [over Jerry Rice], Mike Haight, Roger Vick, Dave Cadigan, Jeff Lageman, Blair Thomas, Johnny Mitchell).
OK, so you're right about Magic. He's almost his own category, since he doesn't fit the typical point guard mold.
But Stockton's the clear No. 2. Think about this for a minute: Stockton had 10 consecutive seasons, from 87-88 to 96-97, in which he averaged more than 10 apg.
Compare that to Nash (9 seasons as a starter, 3 10+ apg seasons); Kidd (14 years, 2 10+ apg seasons); and Isiah (14 years, 4 10+ apg seasons). Stockton's numbers are staggering. He played in every game 17 times in 19 seasons. He averaged 13.1 ppg. He's also the all time steals leader, with 750 more than Jordan.
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But Stockton's the clear No. 2. Think about this for a minute: Stockton had 10 consecutive seasons, from 87-88 to 96-97, in which he averaged more than 10 apg.
Compare that to Nash (9 seasons as a starter, 3 10+ apg seasons); Kidd (14 years, 2 10+ apg seasons); and Isiah (14 years, 4 10+ apg seasons). Stockton's numbers are staggering. He played in every game 17 times in 19 seasons. He averaged 13.1 ppg. He's also the all time steals leader, with 750 more than Jordan.
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